These are the current issues we have been working with Xerox on with unsatisfactory results. In posting these here, I hope that others might share their experience with these or other issues and work to resolve these issues. Some of these we have reported and been dealing with for over 18 months.




DFE/RIP (Creo) Issues
- VIPP image shift of larger then bounding box eps (Files already provided)

- Gradient pantone to pantone printing incorrectly (Files already provided)

- Drop shadows and transparency flattening (Files already provided)

- Trapping of CT over pantone gradient (Files already provided)

- Font missing issues in PDF's (Many files already provided)

- Shadow and highlight detail loss (may also be engine related)



Engine Issues

- Graininess of solid fills

- Developer life (especially Cyan) gets dirty prematurely

- Streaks and lines in process direction in 1 or more colors

- Fusing issues on Coated 80# cover and label stocks

- Ghosting on textbooks (book 8) unless we have new fuser roll in

- Significant bookletmaker slowdown with AIS textbooks, less then 50% of rated speed (range of 33ppm to 74ppm)

- Phantom jams with no status indication on Printer Interface

- Cycle down after first booklet out of bookletmaker

- Jams if run immediately, from creo, to stacker or top tray if current job is run to bookletmaker

- Frequent bookletmaker jams when running max size width through bookletmaker

- Inconsistent squarefold of AIS textbooks

- Loss of detail in images

- Fine line of one of the process colors running full sheet in process direction

- Bookletmaker is smudging or marking the next book out due to poor staple positioning on spine

- Inconsistent staple position on Bookletmaker

- Incorrect gather and staple of books and fold not in ½ but close to 1/3 requiring to cycle power on bookletmaker

- AIS Book for snags and dogears bottom sheet inconsistently through bookletmaker

- Bookletmaker skews folded but not stapled booklets




Please post your thoughts / feedback, I'm curious to see what others are experiencing. FYI, we have had our iGen3 now for over 2 years and over 20 million impressions. I am concerned about the degrading quality and lack of problem resolution on Xerox's part. I am hoping I am not alone and this information will help others.

In Response,

We have 2 iGens since 2004, Creo Rip Sys Config V 2.3, Press Interface V C1.2.2.3.0

Issues we have yet to resolve,

Magenta Spotting, (attribute to not enough Vacuum of Cleaning Brush area and around Dev though unsure - possible Developer Contamination)

Cyan Spotting - same problem though not as common

Toner fusing on heavier stocks (rubs onto next sheet when being finished) + Scratching Toner off pages

Phantom Jams - though when machine checked some paper hidden.

Ghosting and fuser marks usually on heavier stocks (Fuser Roll issue) use fuser for A4 only after this

Developer life - we have average 70,000 before changing developers, some good runs to 110,000

Lines and streaks + uneven coverage on SRA3 after a full service or around 30,000 - We run 500 D/S A3 Dev recovery + Colour Gammit - comes good after running a solid coverage job, though we find after a small run job we must run these test patterns again to get quality up to standard.

Software issues

CREO RIP - what is not a problem?

No good for Indesign Files or PDF's created from Indesign with Transparency, must impose files in Acrobat before printing these if any imposing is required - We dont use Creo Impo for Indesign Files, must Ratsreise individual areas of files and flatten and recreate file to avaoid these issues

Files chrashing mid run, restart Creo and Press Interface for no apparent reason, - Technicians have come and deleted log files and updated software to fix these issues though they still happen.



There are other issues though overall the machines run at a great speed, the quality is usually great when serviced correctly and the output is usually consistent.

I am interested to know how the DocuSP and Fiery RIP software goes with the iGen and cant wait to get my hands on the Adobe Print Engine when it is available - this may fix our software, Rip issues though there is always the quality to maintain - which is a lot of work

Hope this helps

Good to know I'm not alone. Maybe this list of problems in a public forum might get Xerox motivated to fix these issues.

Which Creo processor do you have? The 1ghz, 2.8ghz or the 3ghz? Have you upgraded to system 2.2 yet? 2.2 with all the service packs (4 of them, I think) has made the Creo side of our life easier, still have the issues above, but the stablitity is better.


Also, the DocuSP isn't perfect, we looked at swapping our Creo for it, Xerox wanted to charge some unbelievable price to do this... When we bought the iGen3 we paid more for the Creo then DocuSP...

The EFI rip goes throught the DocuSP, it isn't direct to the iGen3 so don't even consider it. It is Xerox's way to say they have an industry standard rip other then creo, but it is not even worth looking at considering you get a DocuSP anyway.

We also have been having fuser issues with heavy stocks and label stocks, wonder if you have the new metal external heat rollers in the fuser. I think our problems started after they swapped these for the old and good ceramic ones. Cost savings measure is what I was told.

In the 2+ months since your posts, have either of you had any of your issues resolved? If so, what were the resolutions?

Well, I'll go through each issue and give a brief update:

DFE/RIP (Creo) Issues
- VIPP image shift of larger then bounding box eps (Files already provided) UPDATE: Xerox denied SPAR stated it is a file issue, we rejected this resolution, no update since

- Gradient pantone to pantone printing incorrectly (Files already provided) UPDATE: Still not working correctly, Xerox states it was a file issue, we provided proof it was not

- Drop shadows and transparency flattening (Files already provided) UPDATE: Still an issue, HP Indigo and Kodak Nexpress have it fixed, Xerox claims a file issue (notice a trend)

- Trapping of CT over pantone gradient (Files already provided) UPDATE: Still an issue, see the above

- Font missing issues in PDF's (Many files already provided) UPDATE: Still no resolution, been an issue for over 18 months, hampering our ability to implement a pdf workflow

- Shadow and highlight detail loss (may also be engine related) UPDATE: Xerox unable to improve shados and highlights, demonstrated to be a Creo issue, since DocuSP did not have issues as harsh


Engine Issues

- Graininess of solid fills UPDATE: No fix, Xerox says machine is operating normally

- Developer life (especially Cyan) gets dirty prematurely UPDATE: Xerox has tried several things, mainly lowering the toner purge setting for cyan which does improve the life at the sacrifice of speed / productivity

- Streaks and lines in process direction in 1 or more colors UPDATE: Xerox has replaced gears in developer housings but problem still exists but was lessened

- Fusing issues on Coated 80# cover and label stocks UPDATE: We are replacing fuser rolls far more frequently and testing everything coming off the device for fusability no resolution from Xerox but problem comes and goes

- Ghosting on textbooks (book 8) unless we have new fuser roll in UPDATE: Xerox has no idea why this happens, we just replace the fuser roll every time we run this book

- Significant bookletmaker slowdown with AIS textbooks, less then 50% of rated speed (range of 33ppm to 74ppm) UPDATE: Xerox did find an NVM that when changed, speed up the device a bit but still no where near rated speed

- Phantom jams with no status indication on Printer Interface UPDATE: Still no resolution even after a software upgrade

- Cycle down after first booklet out of bookletmaker UPDATE: Random cycle down and ups now occur without warning, we speculate it is related to the phantom jams or developer recovery / purging

- Jams if run immediately, from creo, to stacker or top tray if current job is run to bookletmaker UPDATE: Still no resolution

- Frequent bookletmaker jams when running max size width through bookletmaker UPDATE: Replaced belts, still occurs often

- Inconsistent squarefold of AIS textbooks UPDATE: No resolution

- Loss of detail in images UPDATE: No resolution, possible cause is change in yellow line screen???

- Fine line of one of the process colors running full sheet in process direction UPDATE: Randomly occurs, comes and goes, seems to be tab blade which service must replace

- Bookletmaker is smudging or marking the next book out due to poor staple positioning on spine UPDATE: Unresolved, must undersize book and cheat bookletmaker to reposition staple

- Inconsistent staple position on Bookletmaker UPDATE: See above, but no resolution to missaligned staples

- Incorrect gather and staple of books and fold not in ½ but close to 1/3 requiring to cycle power on bookletmaker UPDATE: No resolution, hard to recreate

- AIS Book for snags and dogears bottom sheet inconsistently through bookletmaker UPDATE: Haven't see this one in awhile, might be related to belts being changed out

- Bookletmaker skews folded but not stapled booklets UPDATE: Xerox claims booklemaker can not fold with out stapling consistently, we rejected that claim


So basically there are almost no issues resolved by Xerox other then excuses or blaming files. Our fustration grows on a daily basis with our iGen3 and with Xerox.

Why not?

Regarding font missing issues in PDF: are the fonts embedded, or merely reference calls?

If reference calls, do the PDFs originate on a Windows platform? Are the PDFs then transferred to a Unix system at any point in their lives?

I know your original post was a while beck but I felt obligated to share my experiences.

I have over 25 years of prepress experience, not only with digital print but as you would expect with COmmercial offset print. I have worked with dozens of rips over the years, so I have seen problems come and go over and over, especially given the fact that there are so many software applications that get upgraded seemingly monthly. One thing I have learned is that there is ALMOST always a work around for a given problem.. I ran a Nexpress for 2 years and now a DocUSP Igen for the last 1.5 years. With this in mind here is my comments.

- Vipp image shift: My experience with this is, it is file related but you would think that xerox could compensate for the problem. If it is the same problem I am having, it is predictable and can be worked around, and it tends to only be when I send from Fusion pro. On a side note the Nexpress had the issue worst but not with VIPP necessarialy and when I stopped running Nexpress it still was an issue, but again it was predictable and we could work around.

- Gadatient pantone to pantone: Is more than likely a file issue. It is a problem for a lot of rips. Not a Xerox only issue from my experiences.. The is usually workaround..

- Drop shadows and Trans: This IS a file issue not only here but in the industry. I have seen it on every rip I have been around and there is almost always a work around and as long as you follow the work arounds it shouldn't be a problem. If you look at Adobes forum for, like indesign (biggest), you will no doubt find a lot of post regarding transparencies. The biggest problem you will find in digital is when you have a process color (such as a drop shadow) going over a spot color (you will have to convert spot color to process 1st).

- Trapping of CT to pantone: Yes again file issues.. Is an industry issue, not just Xerox. Should the software know haw to handle these?? Yes I think all these ripps out there have had enough time to address and come up with something, but most just have work arounds.

- FONTS - AH! FONTS..... Not a Xerox issue either. Industry problem. I don't see this being fixed ever - PDFs must be made correctly with the fonts embedded. PDF workflow is the way of the future and the process we use here. Educate your clients on how to make a good PDF and your worries will dissapear..

- Graininess of solids: The only grain I see is the grain of the paper but it is only with screens of solid colors... Papers have an inheirent grain that will show, especially in the lower quality papers. Example uncoated cougar stock will show a grainy and mottle look on solids, but if you print the same file on something like Hammermill color copy its perfect.. Paper plays a big role here..

- Streaks: I had this problem and they did several things to the machine to fix it. The thing that made the biggest impact was an adjustment where (I think) they calibrated/adjusted the laser?? Anyway once they did that my problems been gone for months now..

- Other issues I have not experienced...

I hope this helps!!

Dale

We are running DocuSP so I can't comment on the issues that were Creo Related.

On your streaks and lines, what do they look like, can you describe them?
We have been experiencing different streaks and lines also. Most have been traced back to the Wire Mods & Power supply boards as the problem. They seemed to get bad after 2.2 upgrade, yet there has been no admittance that this is a factor in the cause. We have had all the gears replaced in the developer housings both the Idler gears (front of housing and Drive gears (rear of housings) this seemed to help in board out board bands but no effect on our process direction streaks. We have had new Power supply boards put in the machine for all colors to minimize Harmonic Streaks A wide Fuzzy edge modulated streak that can shift spots on the sheet depending on the wire mod on the affected housing. I am not sure that the boards have made that big of difference in the streaks because they are still coming and going depending the age and condition of the wire mods. Basically we are rotating and playing trial and error with the wire mods until the streaks are minimized to the point they are not effecting the job I am printing at the time. I have also had very fine line streaks that have only showed in one color but have traced back to the PR Belt as the cause even when the lines were not visable on the belt.

Fusing issues, Does this stay consistent through out a run or does it go away after a few sheets? We have been experiencing a fusing problem mainly on our 14.33 x 20.5 coated press sheets and sometimes on 12 x 18 sheets on the inboard edge, where the first couple of sheets may not fuse across the entire sheet. The problem started a year ago and basically they have attributed it to us shifting stock sizes and the build up of fuser fluid on the inboard edge of the fuser roll, until that smooths out the ink does not fuse properly to the paper. Usually this is on the first 10- 20 sheets, then the ink fuses properly. Xerox cannot expain why we had no problem for a year and then the problem began occuring. They also tried to blame our paper, but we had been running the same paper for a year without any problems, so I wouldn't let them get away with that as the reason, especially when it would start fusing after a few sheets. However, We have tested some stocks that the ink would not fuse to 100% of the time and that was the result of the paper not holding the charge properly where we would see image drop outs occuring every so often through out the press run.
What is your average impression life of the fuser roll?

Phantom Jams - I have actually heard about this at another account under 2.0. It was traced back to a Image Transmission Fault ( Pops on status screen then disappears) - Check Log only faults in Administration window for faults attributed to this when it occurs and give service that code to research ( it may say IDIC fault in a particullar color). We were also warned to clean the feeder sensors (Horseshoe shaped sensor at mouth of each feeder) for paper dust build up which has been known to cause Phantom Jams. We have gotten a few of these every now and then but not so many to become a major issue.

VIPP Bounding box issue - By chance did the affected files originate in InDesign? If so, we have seen this, unfortunately there is no resolution other than to make sure file coming out of InDesign is at final print size other wise the shifts occur.

Indesign & Transparency issues - Convert all spots to CMYK and make sure Transparent Photoshop images are exported to EPS files on a transparent background. Turn off Pantone Processing Enabled on DFE. These are the only work around fixes we have for this problem, other than trial and error.

It is a file issue, we hand code VIPP, but the issue doesn't show in IDE or thin printer so one would make the logical leap that it is a printer issue. Also, outputing the files from fusionpro with the same bounding box issue as vipp fixes the issue.


It is a Postscript 3 limitation not a file issue. Indigo and Nexpress have the problem fixed. Xerox still wants to blame the file. The net of it is that the Creo is rendering the transistion from one pantone to the next if it is not 50% is inverted...



This is also fixed with Indigo and Nexpress and yes, it is a CPSI Adobe issue, yet 2 other vendors have come up with ways to "fix" the issue until PDF based ripping occurs.



Again, HP Indigo and Nexpress do not have these issues. So it leaves it back in Xerox's lap and all cheap laser printers that also have this issue. The heart of the matter is HP and Kodak "had" these issues and responded with fixes, not the Xerox line of its a file issue...


Although not a Xerox issues per sea, it is a bad adobe library that creo has had for over 18 months. The fonts are referenced correctly, but the Creo pukes on it. THis is a creo only issue, thus the reason you don't see it on your DocuSP



Do a solid purple, print out the pantone gamut on a smooth coated stock and tell me you don't see dirty colors, especially in yellows and reds. It may not be obvious and excusable, until you hold it up to offset or Nexpress.



Yeah, they "fix" it for a bit but the issue keeps coming back.

A DocuSP does shelter you from a lot of the Creo issues. Since Kodak bought Creo things have been really slow in solving these Creo only issues.

We now have a Kodak Nexpress 2500 next to the iGen3 and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt all these issues do NOT exist on the Nexpress. Hard to say they are file issues.



We have had every kind of streak, the fact is Xerox can "fix" them but after a few weeks to months they creap back in. Fuser, wire mod, super wire mod failure, doner rolls, PR belt, harmonic calibration of the LED's and much more have been blamed for the streaks and noise.


It does come and go throughout a run. It started when they swapped out the ceramic doner rolls in the fuser for the metal ones. Xerox claims it shouldn't be that, but my gut tells me metal doesn't hold heat as well as ceramic, so its got to be inconsistent heat to the surface of the fuser due to the metal.

Oh and Xerox always blames paper, even if it is on the RML...


Good info, but our logs don't show the ITF, I'll check the feed sensors, but Xerox has told me that they have fixed this in the next version, go figure.


Sadly, the file orgininated in powerpoint and was hand coded in VIPP. It is a file issue, but as I said above, the IDE and thin printer do not show the issue.


The issue is how the Creo interprets unequal pantone to pantone colors, it is inverted... Yes, turning off pantone processing works, but then all solid areas are off. BTW, Indigo, Nexpress and DocuSP handle the color correctly.




Why not? Its a 100k cost option to fix something the DFE should do normally, plus, DocuSP doesn't have these issues, so why?

What is a "100k cost option"? The Fiery?

The Fiery plus DocuSP costs the same as buying the Creo by itself, is what I've seen.

Well, I guess it is pricing inconsistency... None the less, it doesn't negate the fact that it doesn't make sense to have a fiery to do what DocuSP is capable of doing...

I would agree, *if* the DocuSP can do it.

If the DocuSP can't do it, then it doesn't make sense to limit yourself to the DocuSP if you need the features of the Fiery.

It's nice to have two RIPs. For the same price as the Creo, it's almost a no-brainer.

100k option? That's not a pricing inconsistency. That's pulling a random number out of your @ss because you want your "no EFI" argument to look better.

xerox can make the price of the rip free if you are willing to pay enough for the engine.

"Foulish consistency is the hobgolin of little minds"
-Ralph Waldo Emerson

As far as I know, the DocuSP and Creo are very close in price now. The EFI option adds quite a bit more over the top of the DocuSP and is more expensive then the Creo.

However, as rugby148 said, Xerox can make the price look like anything...

Not true.

The Creo equipped system retails at the same price as the EFI equipped system.

Patrick, it's been awhile since you've been with Xerox. Back then, they used to price the press and the controller separately. Using that model, the EFI controller solution--added on top of the engine price itself--looked to be $105K. But keep in mind, using that model the DocuSP controller solution--added on top of the engine price itself--was $75K.

Therefore, the EFI premium was $30K

The Creo solution, added to the engine price, was also $105K--same premium as the EFI. The Creo has always been more expensive than the DocuSP.

And now they've changed how they price the gear; the prices given, say in the latest press release, include the DocuSP controller. There's no more breaking out the controller price from the engine price.

From a retail price standpoint, the EFI is not more expensive than the Creo.

Fantastic, well, the quote I just got says different... Oh well.

You might ask for current retail prices. Of course, a salesman can throw any number he wants at you.

Certainly you have access to groups of people who share things like quoted prices? That's common in the printing world.

Don't matter really, also, who buys retail? What matters is the base price or floor any way.

I guess the real question, which I'll probably have to start a different topic is, since you seem to be so up on EFI, why in the world would someone buy 2 DFE's when one can do everything the second can.

Name me any reason or all reasons why I would want to even consider the EFI rip workflow (did I just call EFI a workflow?) that passes through another DFE?

I just don't get it, maybe I'm missing something, but calling EFI's solution for the iGen3 anywhere near competitive and cost effective to the Creo or standalone DocuSP, I just don't get it...

I just don't see any advantages from a commercial printer perspective, maybe from an inplant or office type application but still, DocuSP can do anything the EFI solution can and much, much more.

Not "when one DFE can do everything the second one can," but IF. If that were the case, I'd agree.

However, DocuSP can't do everything the EFI solution can, that's all.

Don't get hung up on how the image gets to the engine; whether that's a series of fiberoptic cables going to the back of the engine or a network cable going to somewhere other than the back of the engine is immaterial.

All it has to do is be cost competitive with the more expensive Creo solution, plus solve problems the Creo doesn't solve. And it does do that. Maybe not for everyone, but it is a competitive solution.

You must have been away for awhile; the EFI system, first with their System 6 and now with their System 7, is leaps and bounds ahead of what they used to sell when you did this for Xerox in the 2060 space.

I'm sure the Fiery truck has been around in your area. Next time it comes by, make some time to stop in and see their stuff.

(speaking of a workflow from one RIP system going through another engine controller, you might look at the latest Splash...)

Keep in mind I used to do this for Xerox as an iGen3 Analyst... not in the 2060 space. I am very familiar with the most recent software EFI has to offer. I recently reviewed all Xerox iGen3 Solutions in deciding our next purchase direction.

What I am asking you simply is, name one reason, one, to have an EFI DFE in front of the DocuSP.

One thing the EFI DFE does that DocuSP can't do. I couldn't come up with a single one.

I've been in the Fiery truck last year, and no one could answer that question either...

Elmo3 & Patrick,

Let's move this to a new thread. I think it is an interesting discussion, but it has gotten away from the igen issues thread.

I flat out don't believe that no one in the Fiery truck could come up with at least one answer for this one.

You want one thing? I can easily give you one thing. I'll go with VPS.

Oh--and I'll go with imposing a VI stream (although that's changing with 2.4). Oops--that's 2. Sorry.

Want more? How about MUCH more flexible imposition?

We can play this game all day long.

Let's get this back on track...

The main reason this thread was created was to discuss our on-going and unresolved iGen3 / Creo issues.

Unless Elmo wants to give me an EFI / DocuSP, I don't think it will solve the issues.

I'm curious to see what other iGen3 owners / operators are experiencing with their device. How long are their issues being open and unresolved? How many times have they been told something was fixed in the next software version which was months off?

We've been living with all these issues for 20+ months in some cases... I'm just trying to figure out if this is the norm or are we just experiencing more issues then others?

Patrick,
Based on our experiences on our Igen, Murphy's Law Rules: what can go wrong, will .. especially if a retrofit or software upgrade is to take place. Our Motto on our Machine is "When it runs, it runs great!, BUT..." There are periods of times where we don't run good while we fight a quality issue. Our service team has come a long way from when our machine was put in two years ago (first in our region), so we were learning right along with our service team and at times we still are learning as we continue to fight quality issues. I also keep a very detailed Defect Log with samples and their fixes so when something occurs again, I can tell them what the problem is and how it was resolved previously. I stay on top of our service techs about doing their HSFI's on a regular basis, because the undone HSFI's have been know to cause some of our quality issues in the past.

With our ongoing service issues, it seems that we are given "Bandaid" fixes over and over until we go critical (total shutdown or cannot print high quality images) and then they will work to resolve the issue. Their main objective sometimes is to see how fast they can get back out the door rather than find the root of the problem. It also seems to me our service techs don't escalate the calls to Rochester unless they are totally clueless on something, and this hurts us, because when we do go critical on a problem, we have to start at ground zero, because Rochester doesn't know we are having a problem because they have never called on the issue. I would rather the techs spend the time on site working to find the true reason for the problem on the first call - Making the call to Rochester on the problem, rather than leaving us Bandaid and then we have to call them back over and over for the same issue until it shuts down our machine for 3 days. It can be very frustrating.

We have experienced several software issues since the 2.2 upgrade and subsequent Spars, we have also had print engine problems that also seemed to start at the same time as the software upgrade (yet we are told they are not related). Some issues have been resolved and others bandaided and we have been told that 2.4 will fix a software problem we are currently experiencing, that Rochester cannot duplicate. We have found ways to work around our issues until it effects a print job then we do our maintenance and attempt to fix by replacing parts through trouble shooting usually spending no more than 30 minutes or when we don't have any more parts we can replace, then we call them back to see what they can do.

Tracey,

Sorry to hear that you too have similiar problems, I guess there is respite in knowing you are not alone.

Ironically, we named our machine "Murphy" for that exact reason. What can go wrong with it, will go wrong, and will never be at a time convenient to fix it.

Hopefully Xerox is listening and working on these issues.

I am tired of it must be your paper...that part never breaks (usually plastic)...the next software level will fix that - a month later did it fix it?

Escallate a problem, recreate the problem, test the solution, deploy the solution and follow up.

Our local service techs are all great guys and work hard, but they definately need more support from Rochester.

AMEN!!! Sometimes I feel like they act as if we don't know our machine and what it can and cannot do.

I don't think we have bad service techs either, all four guys work hard but, I think they are being pulled in too many directions providing service on all color printers from Doc 12's to the Igen and in some cases desktop color devices, too. It seems that for every Igen added to their service area the less time they have to spend on your problems, because nothing is being removed from their responsibilities when a new Igen is added. They are also being pressured to work less overtime, even though your company is paying for afterhour service.

Re: the graininess issue.

Of course you are going to see more grain than an offset print. The iGen is not at the level of quality a good offset print is; the device is a compromise between quality and the conveniences of a moderately fast, multi-stock-in-one job color printing device. Xerox's own sample print comparisons show that the iGen falls down on several counts, particularly smooth gradients (though I have found turning the line screen down to 150 helps gradients and solid fills print more consistently.)