Full Version: Best Digital Press Available Today
Please click on what you feel is the best digital press, feel free to also explain why and what criteria you use.
So I am the guy who put "Other" as the best digital press. So I thought that I would stir up some controversy and say that I believe that the best digital press out there is the Xerox Docucolor 250.
So I will admit that anybody could make the claim, that any of these presses are the "best" press for any particular printing situation, but I think that the 250 is the best price performance piece of equipment of those machines that were listed.
Look at the features.
- 14pt. Stock
- 13 x 19 sheet size
- Speeds that equal 2045 class of machine (faster in some situations)
- High quality Black only.
- Far wider flexibility than the other digital presses.
- Incredible quality print. Fabulous on full Coveraage.
- No fuser oil, no streaks. (prints more like an Igen than the 20XX class of Xerox machines.
Down Sides:
Speed:
So while it is much slower than and Igen, why not just get several of them. And still costs of a lot less than an Igen.
Large Heavy stock no duplex:
So just run it like a press. Put the stock back through for the other side. This does cause a little more work on the pre-press side if it is a multiple up variable data on 2 sided piece. You do need to run 2 diffent VPS files. One for the front, then a separate one for the back to deal with the opposite positioning to make sure the variable back up properly.
Upsides relative to other Machines listed:
Cost:
The docucolor 250 is far less expensive than any of the other machines listed. This allows you to purchase several of them.
Flexibility:
One of the unseen business model issues of the large digital presses is that you really get forced into selling ONLY Variable Data Work. The reason for this is that the cost of the machines require that you get a very high price for the output, and the most likely way that you are going get that price is to have Varialbe data on the piece. To pay so much for a digital press that you realistically (from a business model perspective) cannot run as a digital short run press, is really constricting on the entire business model.
On the other hand, with the 250, (especially if you have multiple machines) you can easily cater to the shor run color as well as the variable data stuff.
Another problem with... say.... the Igen (you really can't have only one. You really need two of them). The reason for this is that the price on the larger digital presses requires you to find large longer runs to run on the machine and with the speed of the machine, that means that if you get a rep. who actually does what you want and sells a large variable job, your entire digital output is a slave to that job. And to get the longer run, I will bet that the rep did some sort of a discount (just due to dollar volume alone). So that means you would be turning away shorter run (and more profitable work) in order to run the longer run on the Igen. To solve this situation, you need a second IGen.
Certainly, if your customer is a casino, price is no object, and they are sending out membership promotions that are designed with 30-40 variable data fields on both sides, and they do it every few weeks, then it is much easier to justify the bigger digital presses. But if that is your situation, then you have little risk in the press purchase decision anyway.
But if you are a small to mid-size printer looking to do more digital without risking the finanacial resources of the entire company, then there are lots of things to consider. Which may be the Xerox 250 or wait a little bit for the New Cannon C7000VP machine that was shown at Ipex and looks like it might be a good alternative to the higher priced machines currently on the market.
Who knows.....?
So I will admit that anybody could make the claim, that any of these presses are the "best" press for any particular printing situation, but I think that the 250 is the best price performance piece of equipment of those machines that were listed.
Look at the features.
- 14pt. Stock
- 13 x 19 sheet size
- Speeds that equal 2045 class of machine (faster in some situations)
- High quality Black only.
- Far wider flexibility than the other digital presses.
- Incredible quality print. Fabulous on full Coveraage.
- No fuser oil, no streaks. (prints more like an Igen than the 20XX class of Xerox machines.
Down Sides:
Speed:
So while it is much slower than and Igen, why not just get several of them. And still costs of a lot less than an Igen.
Large Heavy stock no duplex:
So just run it like a press. Put the stock back through for the other side. This does cause a little more work on the pre-press side if it is a multiple up variable data on 2 sided piece. You do need to run 2 diffent VPS files. One for the front, then a separate one for the back to deal with the opposite positioning to make sure the variable back up properly.
Upsides relative to other Machines listed:
Cost:
The docucolor 250 is far less expensive than any of the other machines listed. This allows you to purchase several of them.
Flexibility:
One of the unseen business model issues of the large digital presses is that you really get forced into selling ONLY Variable Data Work. The reason for this is that the cost of the machines require that you get a very high price for the output, and the most likely way that you are going get that price is to have Varialbe data on the piece. To pay so much for a digital press that you realistically (from a business model perspective) cannot run as a digital short run press, is really constricting on the entire business model.
On the other hand, with the 250, (especially if you have multiple machines) you can easily cater to the shor run color as well as the variable data stuff.
Another problem with... say.... the Igen (you really can't have only one. You really need two of them). The reason for this is that the price on the larger digital presses requires you to find large longer runs to run on the machine and with the speed of the machine, that means that if you get a rep. who actually does what you want and sells a large variable job, your entire digital output is a slave to that job. And to get the longer run, I will bet that the rep did some sort of a discount (just due to dollar volume alone). So that means you would be turning away shorter run (and more profitable work) in order to run the longer run on the Igen. To solve this situation, you need a second IGen.
Certainly, if your customer is a casino, price is no object, and they are sending out membership promotions that are designed with 30-40 variable data fields on both sides, and they do it every few weeks, then it is much easier to justify the bigger digital presses. But if that is your situation, then you have little risk in the press purchase decision anyway.
But if you are a small to mid-size printer looking to do more digital without risking the finanacial resources of the entire company, then there are lots of things to consider. Which may be the Xerox 250 or wait a little bit for the New Cannon C7000VP machine that was shown at Ipex and looks like it might be a good alternative to the higher priced machines currently on the market.
Who knows.....?
You mention cost, but realistically it comes down to volume and supply and service costs averaged over the life of the machine to get your TCO.
I am curious what you have seen out there for 250 click costs and how Xerox is handling it.
Also, I have seen the output on long runs and cover stock duplexed manually and the color varies tremendously. I measured well over 8 delta E when I looked at it.
The other issue you didn't mention is labor cost. Granted the labor cost to run an iGen3 / Nexpress / Indigo is much higher, but then again you can do all the maintenence. With a 250 you are waiting for service to show up, and with Xerox that could be up to 4 hours of wait time then an hour or two downtime while they fix the machine, assuming they can, since the highly skill techs are on the iGen3 calls. And if you are maxing out one, expect to see a tech at least once a week which translates to not days of downtime but weeks of downtime.
Sure you might not being seeing this kind of downtime today, but in 6 months, 2 years? It always happens when printers try to take an office device and make it into a digital press. Pretty soon you end up with 10 of them, trying to keep them all running, color completely inconsistent across all of them and bam, someone comes out with a better mousetrap.
My testing does not put the 250 in the league of digital presses as it can not perform in the class. Many people will try what you are suggesting and although it will work in the short term, long term, if you plan on growing, you'd be better off with digital presses like Nexpres, iGen3 or Indigo.
I am curious what you have seen out there for 250 click costs and how Xerox is handling it.
Also, I have seen the output on long runs and cover stock duplexed manually and the color varies tremendously. I measured well over 8 delta E when I looked at it.
The other issue you didn't mention is labor cost. Granted the labor cost to run an iGen3 / Nexpress / Indigo is much higher, but then again you can do all the maintenence. With a 250 you are waiting for service to show up, and with Xerox that could be up to 4 hours of wait time then an hour or two downtime while they fix the machine, assuming they can, since the highly skill techs are on the iGen3 calls. And if you are maxing out one, expect to see a tech at least once a week which translates to not days of downtime but weeks of downtime.
Sure you might not being seeing this kind of downtime today, but in 6 months, 2 years? It always happens when printers try to take an office device and make it into a digital press. Pretty soon you end up with 10 of them, trying to keep them all running, color completely inconsistent across all of them and bam, someone comes out with a better mousetrap.
My testing does not put the 250 in the league of digital presses as it can not perform in the class. Many people will try what you are suggesting and although it will work in the short term, long term, if you plan on growing, you'd be better off with digital presses like Nexpres, iGen3 or Indigo.
Look, if you are a printer looking to realistically put 300,000-800,000 clicks a month on a machine, then your choices are small and obvious. I think the Igen is probably the choice. I don't see the Indigo truly getting that volume of printing out in a month realistically. Their maintenance schedule can just become too great to get that much volume out.
But, if you are a printer who is in the realm of doing anywhere from 20,000 clicks to 200,000 clicks per month then look at your options. What are they? Try to make the jump to an Igen? And Indigo? A NextPress? That could be suicidal. The 20xx or 60xx series might be an option, but even then you are buying used and out of date technology.
The 250 is the newest technology in the Xerox line-up. Even newer than the Igen.
Xerox values one thing more than they valued quality, customer service or anything else. They understand that the less that they have to send out a technician, the more money that they make. So what do you think was the most important design component to their latest technology machine?... Maintenance.
If there ever was a Xerox machine designed around ease of maintenance, the 250 is it. Now certainly only time will tell since it is so new, but if you think that the older technology of the Igen is more stable, you might have some people who disagree with you.
Whether people realize it or not, the Igen is actually older technology. Many parts of it are VERY old. Notice that they are already on the Igen 3. That is because the first Igen was old technology by the time it got to market.
And also, lets put in a little bit of real world practicality and realistic costs. What about the problem of the Igen's enourmous size? What do you hope to do as a printer? You hope to become successful and get multiple machines.
I don't know of many existing print shops that have enough extra space that can put in multipe Igens. This means leasing more space or maybe even moving your company. What are those costs?
Good grief, everybody that I personally know of who has installed Igens, has been forced to add space, pour more cement, lease addtional space or even move their company. These costs alone can add up to more than the price of one or two 250's.
Might not the 250's be the way to build your volume and to get you to the point of getting an Igen? Rather than going on the enormously risky path of the 6060, then 8000 etc?
And now they have a cheaper Igen that goes slower? Ya, I can hear what went on in that corporate meeting now.
Xerox Sales VP:
"Hey, printers out there are really pushing back on the price of the Igen's...."
Xerox Marketing VP:
"Well, do like we planned, work them up through the 6060's, then 8000's..."
Xerox Sales VP:
"Ya, we have been trying that, but the sales of the 8000's are really not so good..."
Xerox Marketing VP:
"O.K. let's push the 8000's into the corporate market and come out with an Igen at a lower price..."
Xerox Sales VP:
"If we do that, then the people that we just sold the Igen's to are really going to be mad..."
Xerox Marketing VP:
"O.K. Let's take something away from the cheaper Igen's.... .hmmm, hmmm, I know, let's slow it down..... Ya, that's it... we'll slow it down....."
Xerox Sales VP:
"Ya, with a couple hundred grand off, I am willing to raise my Igen quota by 50%, that will more than make up for the 30% off price...."
Xerox Marketing VP:
"And then we can charge them a premium when they want to speed it up to a whopping 55 sheets per minute."
Xerox Customer Service Manger:
"But if we do that, then we really shorten the window of being able to use the Igen as a short run color press in addition to a variable data pres. Because the speed would be so slow, the costs go up for the shop owner. Then they have trouble even competing against the 1,000 8.5 x 11 color that is being done out there off traditional presses."
Xerox Marketing VP to the Customer Service Manager:
"Look, if you can't get on board here with this, you let me know...
"
END OF MEETING....
I am just saying, that one of the most risky things to do in digital printing right now is to invest in any of the large digital presses without having the work already to run on it. Where as starting small has far less risk.
The risks of the big investments get even worse if you really look into the future. Let's say that you do get a really good client that starts using your Igen all the time. How long do you think that it is going to be until they start thinking about doing it themselves in-house? Sure, Xerox would never try to convince them to just do it themselves... ya, that would never happen. .....
So I think that there is a very high level of risk in the business model, beyond machine capacity or quality, that is not considered enough.
But, if you are a printer who is in the realm of doing anywhere from 20,000 clicks to 200,000 clicks per month then look at your options. What are they? Try to make the jump to an Igen? And Indigo? A NextPress? That could be suicidal. The 20xx or 60xx series might be an option, but even then you are buying used and out of date technology.
The 250 is the newest technology in the Xerox line-up. Even newer than the Igen.
Xerox values one thing more than they valued quality, customer service or anything else. They understand that the less that they have to send out a technician, the more money that they make. So what do you think was the most important design component to their latest technology machine?... Maintenance.
If there ever was a Xerox machine designed around ease of maintenance, the 250 is it. Now certainly only time will tell since it is so new, but if you think that the older technology of the Igen is more stable, you might have some people who disagree with you.
Whether people realize it or not, the Igen is actually older technology. Many parts of it are VERY old. Notice that they are already on the Igen 3. That is because the first Igen was old technology by the time it got to market.
And also, lets put in a little bit of real world practicality and realistic costs. What about the problem of the Igen's enourmous size? What do you hope to do as a printer? You hope to become successful and get multiple machines.
I don't know of many existing print shops that have enough extra space that can put in multipe Igens. This means leasing more space or maybe even moving your company. What are those costs?
Good grief, everybody that I personally know of who has installed Igens, has been forced to add space, pour more cement, lease addtional space or even move their company. These costs alone can add up to more than the price of one or two 250's.
Might not the 250's be the way to build your volume and to get you to the point of getting an Igen? Rather than going on the enormously risky path of the 6060, then 8000 etc?
And now they have a cheaper Igen that goes slower? Ya, I can hear what went on in that corporate meeting now.
Xerox Sales VP:
"Hey, printers out there are really pushing back on the price of the Igen's...."
Xerox Marketing VP:
"Well, do like we planned, work them up through the 6060's, then 8000's..."
Xerox Sales VP:
"Ya, we have been trying that, but the sales of the 8000's are really not so good..."
Xerox Marketing VP:
"O.K. let's push the 8000's into the corporate market and come out with an Igen at a lower price..."
Xerox Sales VP:
"If we do that, then the people that we just sold the Igen's to are really going to be mad..."
Xerox Marketing VP:
"O.K. Let's take something away from the cheaper Igen's.... .hmmm, hmmm, I know, let's slow it down..... Ya, that's it... we'll slow it down....."
Xerox Sales VP:
"Ya, with a couple hundred grand off, I am willing to raise my Igen quota by 50%, that will more than make up for the 30% off price...."
Xerox Marketing VP:
"And then we can charge them a premium when they want to speed it up to a whopping 55 sheets per minute."
Xerox Customer Service Manger:
"But if we do that, then we really shorten the window of being able to use the Igen as a short run color press in addition to a variable data pres. Because the speed would be so slow, the costs go up for the shop owner. Then they have trouble even competing against the 1,000 8.5 x 11 color that is being done out there off traditional presses."
Xerox Marketing VP to the Customer Service Manager:
"Look, if you can't get on board here with this, you let me know...
"END OF MEETING....
I am just saying, that one of the most risky things to do in digital printing right now is to invest in any of the large digital presses without having the work already to run on it. Where as starting small has far less risk.
The risks of the big investments get even worse if you really look into the future. Let's say that you do get a really good client that starts using your Igen all the time. How long do you think that it is going to be until they start thinking about doing it themselves in-house? Sure, Xerox would never try to convince them to just do it themselves... ya, that would never happen. .....
So I think that there is a very high level of risk in the business model, beyond machine capacity or quality, that is not considered enough.
QUOTE (patrick @ Apr 1 2006, 07:17 PM) 
Please click on what you feel is the best digital press, feel free to also explain why and what criteria you use.
I also clicked other because I have recently aquired a canon 7000VP and I love it.
QUOTE (desertdolphin @ Feb 23 2008, 03:37 PM)
I also clicked other because I have recently aquired a canon 7000VP and I love it.
Welcome to the site! Glad to hear you are happy with the Canon. How long have you had it? Have you put much volume on yet?
QUOTE (rugby148 @ Feb 23 2008, 05:32 PM)
Welcome to the site! Glad to hear you are happy with the Canon. How long have you had it? Have you put much volume on yet?
I have only had it for a week, put about 25000 clicks on it so far all of them 12 x 18, the quality of the print from this machine is outstanding, so far it actually looks better than most of the four color offset work I used to job out. Thanks for the welcome.
Canon Imagepress 7000vp. Very impressive quality. 3 mos. old, 400k so far so good. Run mostly 12x18 80 and 100# cover.
QUOTE (patrick @ Apr 1 2006, 07:17 PM)
Please click on what you feel is the best digital press, feel free to also explain why and what criteria you use.
NEW TO THE FORUM AND SOMEWHAT TO THE INDUSTRY. I HAVE ONLY RUN THE IGEN3 DIGITAL PRESS, BUT SO FAR I ENJOY THE VARIETY OF STOCK THE MACHINE CAN HANDLE. THE ABILITY TO TWEAK THE TRANSFER CURRENTS IS AN ADDED BONUS.
I THINK SPEED IS WHAT IT IS (the faster the better), AND WHEN YOU GET TO KNOW YOUR EQUIPMENT YOUR QUALITY WILL BE WHAT IT WILL BE. I RUN A WIDE VARIETY OF MEDIA THRU THE IGEN AS WELL AS SIZE AND OUTSIDE OF METALLIC STOCK IT HAS DONE MOSTLY EVERYTHING ELSE...
THANKS FOR THE FORUM
JC
I have a major issue with the iGens laying down fuser oil to the inside of covers when printed. This prevents us from perfect binding the books unless we switch to PUR glue.
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