Our shop has been in the digital arena for 8 years now, we have had Canon equipment from the begining but I am haveing some doubts after we picked up out CLC4000. We will do about 1 milion VD mailers this year and we are having an ongoing problem. It seems the CLC will not register the IMAGE on the sheet very well. It will shift randomly up to 3/8". Is this something Xerox machines experience?

I am going to have a meeting with the regional Canon service rep this week and I am afraid he is going to tell me it is within the specs of the machine or "it's the paper".

This forum and Today In Print have been a wealth of info!!!! We are just a little shop, and everything is self taught (school of hard nocks), thanks for any info you provide.
Craig

Xerox products have a wide variety of registration tolerances ranging from basically no registration front to back and to +/- .05 mm (which is pretty darn good).

Depends on which system you are looking at.

The copiers, similar to the canon equipment lack larger registration transports, so registering a larger sheet, ie 12x18 gets tougher to geometric distortions and paper shrink/stretch.

Production systems are better like Nurvera and certainly the iGen3 has Xerox's best registration front to back. It's basically nuts on and can be operator tweaked to even accomodate geometric distortion and paper issues. It's a pain to tweak, but it can be done.

I guess it comes down to what your application requires... Are the mailers b&w or full color? What size? At about 1 million per year, that's probably not enough to justify an iGen3 unless there are other applications, but if it's b&w there are several production systems that one could pick up used. If its color, consider a used 2060 or 5252 since it's registration is decent enough and can be tweaked via the RIP. I would also consider getting the Creo front end instead of the EFI, but that's just my opinion.

Good luck and thanks for the question... Feel free to post whatever and whenever. We are here to help.

The mailers are full color - two sided, we average about 40,000 color clicks a month on both machines, so yes there are other application we run.

My concern is if we give up on Canon, we will be in the same place with image registration. I was looking at a 7000/8000 on line and think that might be our next logical step if Canon can't get this thing under control. I'll know more tomorrow when I meet with the Regional Service Manager from Canon.

Thanks Again!!

I used to run a CLC5000 at a previous job, and it had the same problem. It would bounce around at least 1/8th of an inch (I had to start putting 1/4in bleed -- just to get bleed). The techs told me it was within specifications for that machine. Not to mention the skew, which could not be fixed either.

Canon machines just don't cut it. Get a Xerox. Even the older 2000 series (2045/2060/6060) didn't have that kind of registration problems. I'm sure the newer ones are even better.

After haveing the regional service manager from Canon at my shop for 4 hours, we have come to the conclusion that the R1 paper deck was the issue. It was delivered "in a less than desirable condition" it seems that it has to be transported in an upright position or the frame is prone to bending. I have a new deck and my registration is now within specs. (+ or - 2mm) You can be assured we will be looking at Xerox in the future, either an 8000 or an iGen.

After 7 Canon's it seems that my alegience is about to end, although they are going to introguce the ImagePress later this year....

Craig

But Xerox does one thing Canon doesn't: Total Satisfaction Guarantee.

They way they manage this is by a Customer Expectation Document. This document outlines what the machine will and won't do, very specifically. Based on that document, if your machine isn't doing it and their service people can't make it do it, Xerox owes you a different machine--one that can do it.

My guess is that Canon never gave you any such document, or any kind of reference at all regarding what the machine can and can't do. That way, any service tech or service manager or dealership owner or even Canon can walk away from the problem with a simple "well, it's within spec".

elmo3,

The total satisfaction guarantee is a great marketing effort, but in reality it is little more than that. Sure over time Xerox has like for like replaced some equipment or even less frequently unlike for liked equipment, but that is incredibly rare.

It is important to understand and agree with all elements of the customer expectation document and eventially a machines failure to meet the terms of that document may result in a new device, but for the average printer it will go something like this:

1. 3-6 months repeatedly reporting the issue through normal channels and service calls.
2. 1-6 months of escallation to engineering and service managers.
3. 1-2 months of reprieve. Results seem to be being made.
4. 1-3 months of all out complaining and threatening to terminate the contract.
5. Finally, maybe a like for like. All the while Xerox trying to re-sell you what you originally purchased.

Granted, things may not go this way everytime, but too often they do.

Bottom line, understand what you are buying and it's realistic limitations before signing the deal.

but hey, at least there's paperwork to delineate what the machine can do and can't do. Canon doesn't give even that much.

We had a clc5000 for about a year and it did an ok job, but had many issues and was serviced a lot. Last October we went out to find a machine that did a better job, was more reliable, and could produce comperable color to the Igen. We went with Konica, and I must say I am still Extremely happy with the machine and the service. The pricing per piece is very attractive as well. We have been running between 30k and 90k a month on it and it continues to impress me.....

Dale

Thanks for the replies, I am awaiting a phone call letting me know when the dealer is going to buy it back.

I was just informed that they pulled a profit/loss report on my machine and since it was installed last September they have lost $18,400.00 through service, parts and a loaner machine they gave me for 2 1/2 weeks FREE of click charges (which I gladly put 58,000 on).

Yes that the Canon machines do not image and color registration well. If you want print an image assume that a circle pie chart in colors, You can see easy that some disturbed image noises especially at border line between two colors. Also you can see (especially in 30%M 20%C arround) Magenta outside the border of the image.
The main problem is that Canon insists on direct image transfer from drums to the media. They use no pre process of the color registering and transfer control. So no good registration and we can not talk about the consistency.
Xerox pre processes the color registration on the intermediate belt. It puts first some crosses and paterns on the belt. The system adjust it self (cont. negative feedback). During that process, you watch on the user interface "Image quality has been adjusting". When the registration of colors (image) is ok. It starts to print from belt to media (paper).
When it comes to side registration on paper, Canon can not be adjustible friendly: Only technician. Xerox is more easy then Canon but it requires technician.
The new pruduct DC5000 (50 ppm in color ) can be adjustible from user interface easly at that machines. For Both on paper and side to side. The error is in +/-0.5 mm side to side approx. in 4000 pages 81-105 grms paper.

For your info.

iGens use a floating registration. What this means is that there is no gripper or guide. As the sheet moves through the registration transport the sensors read the lead edge and the outboard edge of the sheet, then actuators adjust the sheet if there is any skew. As the sheet travels back through for perfecting the sensors now read the trail edge and the outboard edge. This means that it is registering to the same two edges for both passes. The result is excellent registration throughout the run even if you paper is not all the same size!! In additions 2nd level ACT operators can adjust the machine if the sensors need adjustment. I have been running digital devices for over ten years and have never seen anything as good as the iGen.

Thanks for more feedback! Unfortunately, I am stuck with a CLC 4000, until it is cost effective to do a buy-out. Canon did replace our old CLC with a new one after 3 trips from a regional service manager, a regional sales manager, multiple files sent to their NY labs as well as some sent to Japan!

So far the new one is much better than the old one, but could still be better on the front to back registration.

I know many other people have answered this already, but my iGen3 is accurate to less than half a millimeter.