Ok, in a previous thread it was documented that Xerox claims VIPP is an "open language". But what does open mean.

Can you run it on any postscript engine?

Theoritically, but show me how to get it to run on my Brisques, Printergy or Nexpress, Indigo, HP deskjet, Canon and all the other copier manufacturers engines... Sure I can get it to work using Acrobat Distiller or Ghostscript, but am I able to do that within the license???

Is the documentation online and available?

Sure, but is it complete? Where is the XML tutorials and release notes? Where is the updated documentation and examples?

Can I buy VIPP without owning any Xerox equipment and/or hardware?

Nope, it is impossible to buy VIPP without owning a supported VIPP enabled piece of hardware. You need a serial number to tie the license to that is a Xerox or Xerox partner device, ie Creo Spire, EFI FIery RIP, etc.

Can it take text files in ASCII?

Sure it can, but so can almost all others as well.

Can it connect directly to a database?

Only the IDE can, and that is limited. It only takes ascii or xml based text files. One could argue that XML in and of itself is a database format, but it simply is a tagged text file, and not a database in the traditional sense...


Personally, I love VIPP and I think it should be set free and truely be open. Xerox should let it run on its competition's engine before PPML and vendors like Adobe and Quark leave VIPP behind to handle legacy applications like line mode. With all three major players in the digital print for pay world trying to compete for market share, HP, Kodak and Xerox, it is a perfect time for Xerox to allow the others to use VIPP. If the iGen3 is the best platform to produce print, then setting VIPP free will only prove that point and allow a faster migration plan from Indigos and Nexpress to iGen3's if they could run VIPP. Also, Xerox could gain access to the dwindling Black only world if they made VIPP available for those office copier models as well.

It is only a matter of time before competitors figure out a way to translate or convert VIPP commands to their VI paths or PPML grows up and matures to compete with VIPP. Xerox needs to allow people who want to, run VIPP on anything and truely be open. I don't mean they need to give it away, just at a fair price and charge for support independant of a hardware box / serial number. Of course, if they wanted to go the whole GPL / Open source route, even better, since VIPP could then win the VI game. It is reaching a critical point here Xerox, and it is time to answer the question...

How open are you willing to make VIPP?

openess and licensing are two different things - just because it can, does not mean it should

to be precise, I defin being open as being able to take standrad input and provide standard output - what happens between can be and should be propritary.

so taking in ASCII or XML is very open - no need to directly connect to any specific database - VIPP is not a program as much as it is a programming language. You would not ask for SPANISH to connect directly to one's voice - you would expect to have an interface to do that. Why not expect to have an interface to a database that then output a print strea optimized with VIPP (Exstreme can do this)

For VIPP to be considered "open" wouldn't the interpreter also need to be freely and readily available? Where can one download the vipp interpreter and license for use on say a Canon machine? Okay, even if it is not free, shouldn't it still be readily available?

Sure VIPP accepts open formats (ascii and xml), but so do a lot of applications. I agree VIPP is more of a programming language than an application; however, the interpreter is a key element to doing anything in VIPP. Consider PHP (an open language). It requires no particular IDE, it is well documented, has an open and standard variety of capabilities and the php compiler is free and easy to find.

There really isn't a VIPP interpreter in the way you're thinking of it. VIPP is simply a set of Postscript macros.

What you do in VIPP, you can do in Postscript.

And yes, VIPP works with any Postscript interpreter.

Ok Elmo, then lets get VIPP working on my Nexpress... Oh wait, it might be technically capable of working on it, but Xerox won't allow that to happen. Thus proof it is not open.

Xerox will allow it.

Perhaps you won't like the terms, but they will allow it.

Your definition of "open" doesn't necessarily jibe with what the rest of the world considers "open"...

Show me where and how Xerox will and under what terms they will allow my Nexpress to run VIPP...

Also, lets look at the worlds definition of open... Google search for the word open...

From opensource.org:

"The basic idea behind open source is very simple: When programmers can read, redistribute, and modify the source code for a piece of software, the software evolves. People improve it, people adapt it, people fix bugs. And this can happen at a speed that, if one is used to the slow pace of conventional software development, seems astonishing."

From wikipedia:

"Critics have said that the term "open source" fosters an ambiguity of a different kind, in that it confuses the mere availability of the source with the freedom to use, modify, and redistribute it."

VIPP by no means is open nor open source. PPML and the ANSI spec for it is.

And from http://www.answers.com/open&r=67:

"Affording unobstructed entrance and exit; not shut or closed."

VIPP is closed and prohibits the reverse engineering of, as part of the license agreement.

"Affording unobstructed passage or view"

VIPP now charges for a viewer of VIPP code, meaning it is not freely viewable

"Having no protecting or concealing cover"

Xerox clearly protects VIPP from the world seeing the source code

"Accessible to all; unrestricted as to participants"

Again, show me how to get it running on a Nexpress without any additional requirements beyond running it on my iGen3

"Free from limitations, boundaries, or restrictions"

It is licensed on a per computer basis, restricting its usage to approved devices, etc.

By any definition of the word open, or in the world of open source, VIPP is NOT open or remotely open source.

VIPP is as closed source as Apples iTunes DRM. Try to play any iTunes encrypted song on any non ipod player and you are out of luck... You need Apple's player, Apple's Store and Apple's permission to play music you bought. Heck even if you are the artist and you allow Apple to sell your music, you still need Apple's permission to play your music.

Prove me wrong, I'd love to see VIPP open and Open Source, but it will never happen. And it will never run on my Nexpress. It's purely a marketing decision, not an engineering decision, VIPP is capable of running on any postscript printer, its a matter of Xerox ALLOWING it, thus proving it is not OPEN by that very nature.

you are confusing open source with "open" . Of course, VIPP is not open source because it is a Xerox developed and promoted product. Why in the world would they give it away for free and why would any company give away any of ther commerical products.

OPEN on the other hand relates to integration into and out of the product. Since the intput to VIPP is plain text, XML, etc and the product sits on any PS interpreter, they I classify it as open.

Thus the other arguement that Xerox does not allow it to be open by the shear fact that they prohibit the usage of VIPP on anything other then Xerox sold devices.

Prove me wrong, convince Xerox to allow me to run VIPP on my Nexpress and I'll call VIPP open. Until then it is as closed as iTunes.

By any definition of the word, open, VIPP is not. It is only open if you use Xerox equipment. Or Xerox toolsets.

Why can't I license it for Acrobat instead of spending a fortune on PDF Originator? Or ghostscript? These are postscript engines after all?

How do I buy a license for VIPP if I am not a Xerox hardware customer? Is that even possible?

I am trying to prove that it is neither open source (which is not even an arguement) nor open. I am NOT confusing the two by any means.

You buy VIPP for Adobe via the PDF originator (formerly VIPP Thin Printer). If you already have Distiller, you can my the VIPP license and front end toolset only. The cost for this is inline with the price of Distiller and the VIPP license fee.

You buy the license for other printers via your Xerox sales rep and analyst. They have a program in place but it is not used often so be sure they do the research to find the correct order process. I would suggest you do not do this as an acedemic exercise but only if you are truly interested.

Or you buy SOLscript fro Solimar systems.

No, they do not.

Please ask your analyst or sales rep about FreeFlow VI Interpeter (formerly VIPP)--Open Edition.





It's open, then.





You can license the Open Edition for non-Xerox engines. You can get PDF Originator (formerly VIPP Thin Printer) without spending a fortune, too--it's easy. The $25K price is based on your buying a license for Distiller Server with it. If you choose not to buy a copy of Distiller Server, then you pay $5K for VIPP to plug into your own copy of Distiller Server (or your own copy of Distiller standalone, for that matter).




No. You must be a Xerox hardware customer running VIPP. But you can buy a license for Open Edition for your non-Xerox gear.




Due to your ignorance of the facts, you are failing to prove that it is not open. It is.

Ignorance of the facts??? Show me where this is advertised. How can you blame me for being ignorant of the facts when Xerox doesn't make this public knowledge? Further proof of it not being open, at least from a marketing sense.

At this point, we will see if Xerox will allow VIPP on a Nexpress. I doubt it. Regardless if "Open Vipp" is available or not, it still comes down to a marketing decision.

Plus, the fact they they have a separate unadvertised product called "open vipp edition" kinda proves the point, quid pro quo. Anyways, at a price tag of $25,000 or whatever, it is hardly worth it. I'd just love to see how it would perform on the Nexpress compared to the Spire or DocuSP.

the point is, you ARE ignorant of the facts, correct? You knew nothing about the Open Edition.

That's all I said. Why get so touchy?

And when Xerox does allow you to install VIPP on your NexPress, please come back here--to this thread--and tell us.

And it's not a matter of "if" VIPP Open Edition is available (I have a copy of it in my hands right now, as a matter of fact).

Yes, it comes down to a marketing decision. So? NexPress does the same thing every day.

The fact that they have a separate product called VIPP Open Edition does not prove the point. You may want it to, but it doesn't. And PLEASE READ WHAT WAS WRITTEN: VIPP Thin Printer does NOT cost $25K. Neither does VIPP Open Edition.

What the hell is up your butt, anyway?

I know you hate to be confronted with the facts when they don't fit into your preconceived notion of the world, but come on. Don't tell me the sky is yellow as we stare at a blue sky.

No, Elmo3 its you that is bent out of shape. Throwing insults is the obvious sign. Apparently you've never debated before.

I did know about Open Vipp, I was one of the biggest advocates inside Xerox to open Vipp up. My point, which you seem to convenient miss, is that Xerox does not advertise it at all nor market it. This is a significant issue in the future and longevity of VIPP in my opinion. Not allowing VIPP to run on competitive devices without going through significant hoops or paying a significant premium and not getting any support is a big mistake. Xerox had the opportunity to set VIPP as the standard for VI applications, instead ANSI and PODi have gone a different route with the ANSI spec for PPML which can work on all postscript interpreters without cost. Oh well, par for the course, Xerox having great tech but can't market it...

On top of it, it is an arbitrary decision as to who gets it and who doesn't. That is what my fustration is with.

Frankly, I've now moved every single VIPP application to VDX without missing a beat and I don't miss VIPP at all.

It is just morbid curiousity at this point wanting to see how it performs on non-Xerox hardware. The Creo did fantastic with it, including imposition, I'd be curious to see how it would work on the NexStation.

Maybe someday I'll see it, maybe not.

One thing is for sure, Vipp is certainly NOT open source. I think we can all agree on that.

Shoot, they hardly advertise or market VIPP. In comparison, Open Edition is just as well advertised.

Arbitrary decision: yep. It is. Doesn't make VIPP any less open, though.

Why the hell would you move your apps to VDX? Oh, I get it: you prefer NexPress and ITS proprietary system.

So what happens next, when you change everything to something else because you're beyond the NexPress?

No, VIPP is not open source. But it still remains nothing more than Postscript macros; by that token, anyone could do a very VIPP-like product. Just create the macros that map to the same Postscript capabilities, and the interpreter.

It wasn't that long ago that young college students did such work on a whim...

You decided to state that it is not an interpreter, then what is it. It takes VIPP commands (which are macros or sets of postscript commands) and interprets them into the necessry string of postscript commands for the postscript interpreter.

An interpreter is exactly what it is. At most I will concede that it is not the engine doing the interpreting but rather the postscript engine, but the files that make up the VIPP installation server as a key interpreter resource. And that is exactly the software needed to work with it on other PS interpreters.

I think your statement about VIPP working with any postscript interpreter is a little misleading. In theory VIPP will work on any postscript printer, but there are some requirements aren't there. The printer must support a hard drive to load vipp on. The printer must allow the postscript interpreters run location to be altered and so on.

It would appear Xerox will let VIPP go the way of the mouse :-)

Why do you say that?

Interesting discussion. I've never considered VIPP "open", but my viewpoint is that of a developer. Every command within a PostScript program is PostScript, part of a published, documented standard. I can buy (or download for free) the PostScript manual, and have all the information I need to write or understand any PostScript program. I don't have to pay Adobe a cent, and any PostScript-enabled device will process my code. That's "open".

I've considered VIPP "closed" because it hasn't, historically, been possible to really, truly know what a particular VIPP "command" does, and it requires Xerox hardware and/or software to interpret it.

Has this changed? Can I download, for free, a complete VIPP manual? Can I send VIPP to any PostScript output device?

http://www.vippcommands.com

As for sending VIPP to any Postscript device, the technical answer is yes. You may install VIPP on any Postscript device, and it will run your VIPP jobs. The rest of the question is, will Xerox license that for non-Xerox printers? Only under certain circumstances.

Did Xerox take down www.vippcommands.com?

Below is what I get:

Directory Listing Denied
This Virtual Directory does not allow contents to be listed.

No check out http://vippsupport.xerox.com/

But where is the lookup for all VIPP commands that used to reside at vippcommands.com? That link is just the forums for VIPP.

What happened to the vippcommands.com website?

VIPP is not a language or even semi language!
It is a group of postscript procedures and dictionaries which simplified the Postscript language!
While adobe invested huge effort and innovative effort to develop the language they produce little documentation and training courses! The red Book - which is free now - is difficult for ordinary users to penetrate and benefits from the language!
That's why you might need great effort to learn merging forms and logo to PS Job!
Xerox facilitates that by building Postscript procedures used by single work and with one or many parameters to do the required function!

Bugt negative points as well ; VIPP tunred some of the simple PS commands into complicated procedure and some are simply replicated without any value! ONLY TO GIVE THE TOUCH OF AN INDEPENDECE AND FORCE THE USER TO USE ONLY VIPP !


Sure they will not release the internal structure of mechanism of VIPP!! It would be easy to break up the VIPP and use those procedures as you like!
Just because the spreading of Xerox engines in; production market VIPP still getting bigger and many vendors try to use those Xerox procedures/dictionaries instead of writing in PS directly.