Elmo3,
Here's the thread you asked for, ask anything about the Nexpress. I will offer my same, unfiltered experiences now having 2 for over 6 months. I will tell the positives and negatives. Ask away, your chance to get any competitive information...
How about the lack of a click plan, good or bad? How about the Advantage plan, how's that working out?
How about the maintainence required?
How about color quality and consistency?
How about paper stocks and ability to tweak them?
How about inline finishing?
How about variable data capabilities?
How about the RIP software and interface?
How about the crazy way the Nexpress flips the paper over?
How about the clear toner or maybe the gamut expansion Red, Green and Blue?
How about the glosser unit and how well that works?
How about the color science behind the RIP and how you only have to calibrate one stock?
How about the FM screening Staccato DX?
How about how close it matches offset?
How about its pantone matching and plugins?
How about its full JDF support without buying any additional software?
How about its support for offline finishing and barcoding?
How about its registration, separations and sheet to sheet or front to back?
How about the paper drawers and how much paper the hold?
How about the speed of the press?
How about the stackers and how much then can hold before emptying? Can you chain the stackers?
Just trying to get your started, I know you are dying to ask these questions... So ask away. I'm sure I won't be the only person answering these questions. But if I am, I will use the same basis for answering them, my experience in owning one. Not some document Kodak gave me, but the experience I have. I am sure others will provide their experience too. Good or bad, that is the point of these forums. I can't answer anything about an Indigo since I don't own one or haven't owned one. I can only speak to Nexpress and iGen3.
So bring it on, lets get the discussion going. Each one of these questions can be its own thread if you like... I know you want to know the truth about the Nexpress, it's just eating you up. So instead of defending the iGen3, lets talk about the Nexpress, what it is good at, and what it isn't good at.
Full Version: Open invite to Elmo3 To discuss the Nexpress
How do you get rid of the streaking in solid areas?
Streaks in solids are caused by many things. Most common is fuser fluid contamination in the developer housings.
There are a couple little apps that will run to help minimize the contamination and clean it up but mostly we clean and replace parts and the streaks go away. Fuser streaks can be caused by fuser sump parts that build toner up. Cleaning or replacing these, along with the fuser roll can fix those kinds of streaks.
Overall, streaks are the biggest challenge in solid flat fields, best way is to avoid solid fills by adding a pattern or noise to the area. We have found that the FM Stocastic screening in 8.5 helps alot with this as well.
I am impressed with the ability to clean the press up and get the streaks to go away with minimal work, less then an hour or so. Over a run, the streaks don't usually show up until you are switching papers.
There are a couple little apps that will run to help minimize the contamination and clean it up but mostly we clean and replace parts and the streaks go away. Fuser streaks can be caused by fuser sump parts that build toner up. Cleaning or replacing these, along with the fuser roll can fix those kinds of streaks.
Overall, streaks are the biggest challenge in solid flat fields, best way is to avoid solid fills by adding a pattern or noise to the area. We have found that the FM Stocastic screening in 8.5 helps alot with this as well.
I am impressed with the ability to clean the press up and get the streaks to go away with minimal work, less then an hour or so. Over a run, the streaks don't usually show up until you are switching papers.
Oh and the streaks can be caused by buildup of fuser fluid contamination in the developer housings as well, which can be a pain to clean up. But can be done, our tech's showed us how to buff out the doner roll in the developer housing to minimize the streaking.
Streaks are a pain to have to deal with, there is no doubt about that. Probably the easiest is just set the expectation that they will be inevitable in flat fields on dry toner based products. I have yet to see a dry toner based product product great solid flat fields over any long period of product. Of course, setting that expectation sometimes can be harder then fixing the streaks to begin with.
Streaks are a pain to have to deal with, there is no doubt about that. Probably the easiest is just set the expectation that they will be inevitable in flat fields on dry toner based products. I have yet to see a dry toner based product product great solid flat fields over any long period of product. Of course, setting that expectation sometimes can be harder then fixing the streaks to begin with.
QUOTE(patrick @ Dec 26 2006, 02:05 PM) [snapback]817[/snapback]
Oh and the streaks can be caused by buildup of fuser fluid contamination in the developer housings as well, which can be a pain to clean up. But can be done, our tech's showed us how to buff out the doner roll in the developer housing to minimize the streaking.
Streaks are a pain to have to deal with, there is no doubt about that. Probably the easiest is just set the expectation that they will be inevitable in flat fields on dry toner based products. I have yet to see a dry toner based product product great solid flat fields over any long period of product. Of course, setting that expectation sometimes can be harder then fixing the streaks to begin with.
Hi Patrick!
I ran a Nexpress for 2 years before going to an Igen house. One of the top 2or3 problems I fought was this streaking. While yes in an hour or less you can help, it always came back. For 90% of the work we did it wasn't a big issue but then there were the jobs that the streaking just kept coming back and never would go away. Anyway, back to my question, I find that the Igen has far less streaking issues and when it does it is almost always caused by a wire and once swapped out it is fine. What are your thoughts on streaking and banding - Nexpress vs Igen
Thanks!
Dale
Streaking on our Nexpresses has not been bad. Biggest cause seems to be the fuser sump and that is easily swapped out. Maybe there have been some major changes since you had your Nexpress? I know all the fuser components are different then classic 2100s.
The solid fills on our Nexpress are way above what our iGen3 was doing. The biggest problem we fought was not banding as much as developer going bad and mottling or getting dirty. Also the lines from the TAB blade that service had to come out and replace always came up.
Also any 3 color gray reproduces much better and far more consistent then on our iGen3, we no longer see that wonderful rainbow effect that the iGen3 would do with a 3 color solid gray that needed to be warm or cool, not neutral black.
Far and away our customers are loving the new quality we are able to produce and we have found a lot of offset transfer work that we could never achieve the quality before.
We have about 5 million impressions on our Nexpress's already and haven't seen any decline or drop in quality or any additional maintainence then what we had to do from the beginning.
The solid fills on our Nexpress are way above what our iGen3 was doing. The biggest problem we fought was not banding as much as developer going bad and mottling or getting dirty. Also the lines from the TAB blade that service had to come out and replace always came up.
Also any 3 color gray reproduces much better and far more consistent then on our iGen3, we no longer see that wonderful rainbow effect that the iGen3 would do with a 3 color solid gray that needed to be warm or cool, not neutral black.
Far and away our customers are loving the new quality we are able to produce and we have found a lot of offset transfer work that we could never achieve the quality before.
We have about 5 million impressions on our Nexpress's already and haven't seen any decline or drop in quality or any additional maintainence then what we had to do from the beginning.
QUOTE(patrick @ Dec 28 2006, 03:59 PM) [snapback]857[/snapback]
Streaking on our Nexpresses has not been bad. Biggest cause seems to be the fuser sump and that is easily swapped out. Maybe there have been some major changes since you had your Nexpress? I know all the fuser components are different then classic 2100s.
The solid fills on our Nexpress are way above what our iGen3 was doing. The biggest problem we fought was not banding as much as developer going bad and mottling or getting dirty. Also the lines from the TAB blade that service had to come out and replace always came up.
Also any 3 color gray reproduces much better and far more consistent then on our iGen3, we no longer see that wonderful rainbow effect that the iGen3 would do with a 3 color solid gray that needed to be warm or cool, not neutral black.
Far and away our customers are loving the new quality we are able to produce and we have found a lot of offset transfer work that we could never achieve the quality before.
We have about 5 million impressions on our Nexpress's already and haven't seen any decline or drop in quality or any additional maintainence then what we had to do from the beginning.
I'm sure Kodak has fixed a lot of the issues I had years ago. I'm interested in your comment regarding the solid fills... I think the solids are outstanding off the Igen with the exception for some screened solids. I'd be interested in you elaborating a little more on this. As far as the Greys go - I have seen some issues, but I can relate most to PM and planning as long as the press is freshly tuned up it will run greys fine, but as for in the middle of a cycle I have to give you this one, there are a some issues. But on a side note when I ran the Nexpress (again 2 years ago), about 30% of our work was solid grey area (main account), I had a lot of issues with consistancy and on mid size or long runs the streaking would become an issue. It's good to here they have improved.
I would still have to debate the quality, I would absolutely love to find someone to run a test with me where we send each other a file(1 each), no special situation geared towards on machines strong suit, but a nice project. Sight unseen produce your best prints and exchange the prints to see an apple to apple. I tried to arrange this a couple of times with the other person bailing before we started. I think it could be a good observatiion and we could post some imparcial opinions based on what we find...
Thanks for your comments!
Dale
Dale,
You got a deal, I'd love to set up a mutually agreeable file / job to run on both the Nexpress and iGen3 to show the ups and downs.
I have lots of examples of jobs we ran on the iGen3 vs now on the Nexpress but it would be nice to have each other set up the press in idea production environments and have a quality shootout.
Maybe others would want in on it too, I'd love to get some Indigo output as well. None of the corporate bs demo room output, but actual customer files with speeds, and maybe a decent run length to measure productivity.
The other thing I'd like to do is an offset printed piece match. Where we print something offset, and from the same file, the iGen3 and the Nexpress attempt to match the offset piece. You have to keep track of how many rounds of color adjustments, but we would then measure the accuracy of the CMYK and pantone reproduction over a run using Delta-E and see who holds color closer to offset.
There are 2 things this would accomplish, we'd have empirical examples of quality and color accuracy over a run.
Depending on where you are at, I'd even offer to come out and have you come up during each run so we observe the run to rule out "cheating"... Not that I don't trust you, but for those that don't trust the "fairness" of the test.
I'd love to hear what others have to say about this "shootout" and see if we can get more then just yours and mine output as a test. Maybe if we put some sort of title on it or something, like Best in Color, Best in Quality.
Maybe this could / should be an annual event?
You got a deal, I'd love to set up a mutually agreeable file / job to run on both the Nexpress and iGen3 to show the ups and downs.
I have lots of examples of jobs we ran on the iGen3 vs now on the Nexpress but it would be nice to have each other set up the press in idea production environments and have a quality shootout.
Maybe others would want in on it too, I'd love to get some Indigo output as well. None of the corporate bs demo room output, but actual customer files with speeds, and maybe a decent run length to measure productivity.
The other thing I'd like to do is an offset printed piece match. Where we print something offset, and from the same file, the iGen3 and the Nexpress attempt to match the offset piece. You have to keep track of how many rounds of color adjustments, but we would then measure the accuracy of the CMYK and pantone reproduction over a run using Delta-E and see who holds color closer to offset.
There are 2 things this would accomplish, we'd have empirical examples of quality and color accuracy over a run.
Depending on where you are at, I'd even offer to come out and have you come up during each run so we observe the run to rule out "cheating"... Not that I don't trust you, but for those that don't trust the "fairness" of the test.
I'd love to hear what others have to say about this "shootout" and see if we can get more then just yours and mine output as a test. Maybe if we put some sort of title on it or something, like Best in Color, Best in Quality.
Maybe this could / should be an annual event?
QUOTE(patrick @ Dec 29 2006, 03:50 PM) [snapback]865[/snapback]
Dale,
You got a deal, I'd love to set up a mutually agreeable file / job to run on both the Nexpress and iGen3 to show the ups and downs.
My intial thoughts where that we would each pick on file (of our own inhouse) print it and sent the file and printed peices to each other so we couldn't try to enhance after seeing the others work. We would ship at the same time.. 2 files printed 1 from each company... We need a indigo and an offset shop to joint in and due the same thing - 4 files, with no one seeing each others work until they printed it. WOW this could be cool. Do you think we can pull this together?
Dale
I think so... At least the Offset and iGen3 / Nexpress piece. We'd have to find someone with an indigo to round it out.
Here's what I am thinking though:
We set up a common file. multiple pages like a 16pager since that would be fairly easy to do offset, each page has different elements we'd like to test. Running at different line screens would be cool too, show each line screening method each press offers.
-Solid coverage cover, heavywight glossy stock black solid
-Text weight light area coverage inside pages, uncoated stock
-Mixed CMYK images and RGB images (no embedded profiles)
-Multiple pantone solid fills and gradients from pantone to panton
-black only pages with images and text, grayscale
-warm and cool gray solids
This file would need to run inline with up to 3 paper stock changes. Stocks would have to be decided ahead of time so to find mutually agreeable stocks that everyone can run (this might be a challenge with indigos)
We visit each other during the runs, I can videotape each session. Each session would capped at 4 total hours to complete say 500 sets of the book. You would have ample time to prep the machine to ideal state prior to session starting, but before session starts, machine and DFE would be turned off and sit idle for 30 minutes. Session starts with machine turned on, file submitted (already programmed but not ripped) file ripped and timings would be made for RIP time and print time. You can use as many sheets as you want to get the best 500 collated sets of the book, but you only have 4 hours to produce the job. We would provide an offset printed version or inkjet calibrated proof to run to (like something set up to a Gracol standard) and the goal would be to achieve offset or better results.
The results would be calculated, runtime, amount of maintainence, amount of spoilage, time to print, downtime, color accuracy from sheet to sheet, registration front to back drift, registration plate to plate, quality (subjective, would need independent judge) and anything else we can measure during these times.
In the end, we could merge the output together with the offset and create a book showing side by side, offset / igen3 / nexpress / indigo output and the various ups and downs of each technology. We could come up with awards for each category we are testing, ie, best solids, best pantone reproduction, best image quality, best color accuracy, best color consistency, fastest output, lowest cost (assuming we were willing or able to calculate actual costs of each job or just use standards for labor and machine / clicks). If something unforseen were to occur, ie press failure, service call, we'd stop the clock and document the downtime, this would just be a 4 hour test of how you can get 500 16pagers out, which on the igen3 would be 1.33 hours of print at rated speed and 1.6 hours on a Nexpress 2500. There extra 2+ hours would give each adequate time to fix any issues with output or tweak color to be exact, but any longer and it wouldn't be realistic in a production environment.
No tricks, nothing to hide, vendor neutral, printer and against printer, with the winner in each category able to use this in marketing materials, etc. Plus they would have the sample books to show customers, everyone who would participate would get the final sample book showing all participants.
I think this would be a blast to do. Don't really care if I win, more interested in the results. I doubt it would solve anything since igen3 vs nexpress vs indigo discussions are like debating religion but it would be a lot of fun to see the results.
If you think you can spare 4 hours and some paper, I'd do the same. Think about it and I'll start setting up the file and make it public so everyone can review it and make sure there is nothing fancy going on with it, no surprises.
Here's what I am thinking though:
We set up a common file. multiple pages like a 16pager since that would be fairly easy to do offset, each page has different elements we'd like to test. Running at different line screens would be cool too, show each line screening method each press offers.
-Solid coverage cover, heavywight glossy stock black solid
-Text weight light area coverage inside pages, uncoated stock
-Mixed CMYK images and RGB images (no embedded profiles)
-Multiple pantone solid fills and gradients from pantone to panton
-black only pages with images and text, grayscale
-warm and cool gray solids
This file would need to run inline with up to 3 paper stock changes. Stocks would have to be decided ahead of time so to find mutually agreeable stocks that everyone can run (this might be a challenge with indigos)
We visit each other during the runs, I can videotape each session. Each session would capped at 4 total hours to complete say 500 sets of the book. You would have ample time to prep the machine to ideal state prior to session starting, but before session starts, machine and DFE would be turned off and sit idle for 30 minutes. Session starts with machine turned on, file submitted (already programmed but not ripped) file ripped and timings would be made for RIP time and print time. You can use as many sheets as you want to get the best 500 collated sets of the book, but you only have 4 hours to produce the job. We would provide an offset printed version or inkjet calibrated proof to run to (like something set up to a Gracol standard) and the goal would be to achieve offset or better results.
The results would be calculated, runtime, amount of maintainence, amount of spoilage, time to print, downtime, color accuracy from sheet to sheet, registration front to back drift, registration plate to plate, quality (subjective, would need independent judge) and anything else we can measure during these times.
In the end, we could merge the output together with the offset and create a book showing side by side, offset / igen3 / nexpress / indigo output and the various ups and downs of each technology. We could come up with awards for each category we are testing, ie, best solids, best pantone reproduction, best image quality, best color accuracy, best color consistency, fastest output, lowest cost (assuming we were willing or able to calculate actual costs of each job or just use standards for labor and machine / clicks). If something unforseen were to occur, ie press failure, service call, we'd stop the clock and document the downtime, this would just be a 4 hour test of how you can get 500 16pagers out, which on the igen3 would be 1.33 hours of print at rated speed and 1.6 hours on a Nexpress 2500. There extra 2+ hours would give each adequate time to fix any issues with output or tweak color to be exact, but any longer and it wouldn't be realistic in a production environment.
No tricks, nothing to hide, vendor neutral, printer and against printer, with the winner in each category able to use this in marketing materials, etc. Plus they would have the sample books to show customers, everyone who would participate would get the final sample book showing all participants.
I think this would be a blast to do. Don't really care if I win, more interested in the results. I doubt it would solve anything since igen3 vs nexpress vs indigo discussions are like debating religion but it would be a lot of fun to see the results.
If you think you can spare 4 hours and some paper, I'd do the same. Think about it and I'll start setting up the file and make it public so everyone can review it and make sure there is nothing fancy going on with it, no surprises.
WOW!
This is a little more than I had in mind.. Great Idea though.. I was just looking for a quick lets print and disuss, type of test. What your proposing sounds like somthine we could get funding to do through vendors or such to do an official case study publishing the results. Not backing out at all, just thinking this could be a undertaking. I love how you think Patrick, I thought I was an only child
...
Lets brainstorm and think about this over the holiday weekend... Happy New Year!
Dale
This is a little more than I had in mind.. Great Idea though.. I was just looking for a quick lets print and disuss, type of test. What your proposing sounds like somthine we could get funding to do through vendors or such to do an official case study publishing the results. Not backing out at all, just thinking this could be a undertaking. I love how you think Patrick, I thought I was an only child
...Lets brainstorm and think about this over the holiday weekend... Happy New Year!
Dale
Sounds great, I'm open to anything.
I'd be fun to take our output, arguably better then what both vendors do in their demo rooms
and compare.
I'd be fun to take our output, arguably better then what both vendors do in their demo rooms
and compare.QUOTE(patrick @ Dec 29 2006, 07:09 PM) [snapback]869[/snapback]
Sounds great, I'm open to anything.
I'd be fun to take our output, arguably better then what both vendors do in their demo rooms
and compare.Thanks Patrick..
I am willing to participate, But I don't know about the traveling and tough guidlelines you are imposing. Not that I don't agree with them, just that I don't know that I can commit to anything that elaberate. Maybe if there are 3 shops in the same region that can do this might make more sense? I'm in Cleveland Ohio, where are you out of? Have you put a file together yet? I will do whatever I can to make this happen within reason. I like you am very curious to see how the machines have changed over the years and some simple comparison would be very interesting. I'm not trying to say one machine is better than the other, I'm just interested in seeing the differences... There are a lot of variables that contibute to the overal quality like the operator, the rip, the enviroment, etc. That's why I would like to see the companys participating just run what they think is the best quality and color they can and would sell (with nothing to compate to). Then compare the results of what people are selling and what the different machines can do.
You are taking to the next level, which is cool, but maybe a little more difficult to pull together? Anything I can do I will to make something happen. Let me see the file when you have it ready and lets come up with a plan that maybe is somewhere between the two ideas?? What do you think?
Thanks!
Dale
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.