Hi,
I am a newbie to the world of digital printing. The company I work for uses Lytrod's Proform Designer (Version 4). It runs on Windows 2003 Server on a Dell Server machine.

This is a long post and I would really appreciate any assistance from experienced software experts in the field of digital printing. Please bear with me

The person handling this software has had a long history of problems with it and I have taken over his duties. I have a programming background in .net and php. This is the first time I am handling a printing software and VIPP language.

I have had problems with the Proform designer interface. The cursor keps changing rapidly between Data, Text and Image modes continuously. It is like a mad spin all the time.

The program crashes often and shuts down. I have noticed this happens when I type static text. If there is a sequence of the letters "if" (without the quotes), this pattern gets replaced with the pattern "fi?" (without quotes again) and when I save the form I am working on, the program crashes. It says it cannot handle the ? in the text as the major reason for the crash (Sorry I did not note down the exact error)

I have pointed this out to Xerox but they are unable to explain. Many a time, when I save the form and view the output on the PDF viewer (Freeflow VI PDF Originator Job Client Viewer), the blocks of static text typed by hand appears totally gatrbled and out of place.

When I tag a data variable forcibly to the block of static text, it appears correctly on the output on the viewer.

For a client job today, I tried to save a pdf file as an eps file from within Adobe Professional and imported it into Lytrod (File>Import>Background). The background consisted of the graphics and the static text. I had to insert one data variable from a CSV file which I intended to do through a Data Import function. After submitting the job, when I viewed the job on the viewer, all I could see was blank space with just the data variable value on it, by itself. (But just last week, strangely enough, I was able to attach eps files as the background on a form when I went for training at Xerox.)

I then imported the pdf file as an image directly into the form and it worked. These are fundamental features of Lytrod's Proform Design and such simple things do not work as they are meant to. It is an expensive software and it needs to do what it says it can. It becomes a major irritant when there are such inconsistencies in the basic functioning of this software.

I then applied a logical condition for the Job Condition for duplex printing 6 up. I used the condition on Form 1:
If back (VIPP variable) equals true, then
Replace Form with Form2.fsl

It did not work as Form2 was not visible on the output. Bizarrely enough, I changed it to:
If back (VIPP variable) equals false, then
Replace Form with Form2.fsl
This worked and I could see both Form1 and Form2 back to back. This defies all logic and I had to try this to get the client's job done.

But when I had to do the same job of printing an invite for the same client but for a different data list, I tried
If back (VIPP variable) equals true, then
Replace Form with Form2.fsl

and it works perfectly. It defies all logic

This kind of trial and error method is not the right way to harness the power of this software. Is this an issue with other users? Or is it only us having such issues with Lytrod?

Are there cheaper alternatives to this software? My company does not want to spend big $ to face these kinds of problems all the time.

We have rebuilt our server upon advice by Xerox and still the Proform designer environment is unstable. Or is it plain that Lytrod is extremely buggy?

I would value the experts' opinion on these issues I have raised and greatly appreciate your help and advice.

Thanks and regards
Raviv

Raviv,

I can not say that I have all that much experience with Lytrod; however, I have used VIPP rather extensively. If you have PDF Originator (Thin Printer) then I would consider dropping the damn UI and learning to hand code vipp.

Another cheap and even easier suggestion would be to use Fusion Pro by Printables. It is less than $500.00 and it is incredibly simple yet powerful. It is a PDF based solution which has numerous other benefits.

What devices are you using for output? How many jobs? How many records per job?

did you contact Lytrod? They are very good at responding to customer issues.

Thanks rugby 148 and vippguy. I appreciate your replies.

We have a DOcu5252 printer and a Nuvera. Most of the time, the output is ripped by Docu5252. There are no printer issues so far.

The job I did after which I reported these problems is an invitation to be printed for a client who has shops at 2 different locations. There are 2 data lists with different customer names which varies according to the shop location.

There was only one data variable firstname followed by surname. The first data list had 829 records and the second data list had 892 records.

As I pointed out, my company is slightly hesitant to take on variable data jobs when the software is so unpredictable in its behaviour.

As for support from Xerox, they have tried to solve it and asked us to rebuild the machine etc. THey feel there could be hardware/other software on that server where Lytrod is installed and could be interfering with Lytrod's performance. But I have tried everything and there is oly Freeflow software apart from Lytrod on that server.

The machine has been rebuilt, the software reinstalled etc but the functionality of the software is still the same. As rugby148 said, I will have to learn to handcode VIPP. If I go down this path, we dont have to pay big $ for Lytrod and might as well look at cheaper alternatives.

I will wait for more of your valued opinions before I put my recommendations across to my boss. I wil investigate Fusion Pro and see how it goes.

THanks again for your feedback. Looking forward to hearing more,
Thanks and Regards
Raviv

One other consideration I would suggest you consider is designing with device independence. VIPP is a very powerful vdp format; however, it required Xerox devices with a VIPP license (some would argue you can get a VIPP license for any engine; however, I have not experienced that). With something like optimized postscript, optimized pdf or ppml you will be able to output to more devices.

Thanks John, I appreciate your help so far.

I have looked at Fusion Pro and found that it outputs in 9 different formats of which VIPP is one. We have bought our printers from Xerox and also have a license from them for the VIPP engine.

Since our problems are with the UI from Lytrod, would it be feasible to just replace Lytrod with Fusion Pro Desktop (for example) to give us a vehicle to output it as VIPP to our printers?

I saw a demo on business cards on the Fusion Pro web site. I presume the process of importing a designer created pdf file into Fusion Pro would be similar to the Lytrod UI.

From my understanding, Fusion Pro converts the file into various formats for data, images etc and using ASP outputs it into the final pdf format. But this conversion appears to be done by the Fusion Pro Server.

1) Would buying just the Desktop Pro suffice or should we get the Fusion Pro server also with it to work? What we want to achieve is to convert the original pdf file into VIPP output.

2)Would the ripping be tedious with Fusion Pro (since it outputs in pdf format) or relatively fast as in the case of VIPP using Lytrod where the data variables and images are substituted on the fly?

I would appreciate your assistance in this matter

Many thanks and regards
Raviv

FusionPro Desktop would work for you most likely...

At $400 it is a hard option not to just pull the trigger and try it and see if you can do what you need to do with it.

To clear up some stuff on FusionPro Desktop:

-It is a plugin to Acrobat
-It can read in text files as a data source and on the PC ODBC connections as well
-The backend coding engine of FusionPro Desktop is Javascript (not ASP)
-You set up everything in Acrobat, your variable template is a PDF file
-You output to 1 of many VI formats, including VIPP
-The output to VIPP is not standard VIPP but E-VIPP which is encapsulated so all resources are in one postscript file.
-VIPP output should RIP very fast, maybe a tad bit slower then hand coding all resources, but should be fine...
-Other output options exist, such as Optimized PDF or Optimized PS which can solve problems that VIPP can't handle (transparencies for example)
-FusionPro Desktop comes with a very powerful imposition template tool for imposing the data correctly
-FusionPro Server uses the PDF and other files to compose VI output in a centralized manner, freeing up the desktop and is only needed for heavy production composition, most one off applications can be done right from FusionPro Desktop. Look at Server if you are doing a lot of recurring daily/weekly work that takes a long time to compose.

All of my former VIPP jobs have been able to be converted and composed in FusionPro Desktop as we are now VIPP free in our environment.

Some folks from Lytrod do visit this site, so hopefully they can solve your GUI problems, but if you are looking for another option, for $400 it is hard to pass up trying it.

Good luck.

Thanks a lot Patrick for your valuable feedback. I really appreciate it.
Regards
Raviv

Keep in mind, Fusion Pro Desktop differs from VIPP in one very critical way: with Fusion Pro you must take the time to compose (create) the output stream in its entirety before sending the job to the printer. This can take quite a long time.

With VIPP, the job program exists on the printer and you submit only the data, not an entire print stream. The pages are being dynamically composed at the printer simultaneously while the print job is running. This is a HUGE increase in efficiency.

In addition, any change in a job with Fusion Pro means you have to re-compose the print stream all over again. What if you have a 5 hour composition time?

But with VIPP, you make the change to the job and resubmit only the data and the job is dynamically composed and printed simultaneously, without the pure inefficient downtime of composing the print stream.

Lytrod isn't my favorite tool at all. If you're going to do VIPP, just learn to program it without Lytrod. But do have the VIPP IDE, for assistance in programming it by hand.

If you don't mind the huge efficiency hit that an emitter like Fusion Pro gives, it's a simple and straightforward application that just about anyone can use to do basic stuff. It can also do many many involved things, as long as you know and use javascript. But if you're going to be a javascript programmer, you might as well be a VIPP programmer and lose that whole compose time that Fusion Pro requires.

Frankly, there's room for both tools in any environment. They can complement each other quite nicely. I'd hate to do a one time run of 1000 simple variable pieces in VIPP, when Fusion Pro takes no time to set up and compose that job (compared to writing the VIPP program). But I'd HATE to do an ongoing job of thousands or millions of records (think credit card statements) using Fusion Pro; it's much more efficient to spend the time up front to create the application in VIPP and then simply send the new data down every day/week/month and dynamically and simultaneously compose and print the job on the fly.

Anyone who tells you that you can replace VIPP completely in every situation is blowing smoke. Likewise, the same goes for anyone who tells you that you should use VIPP for every application. While VIPP does 100% of what Fusion Pro can do with regard to programming a variable job, and while it then goes beyond what Fusion Pro can do, that doesn't mean you *should* use it for everything.

VIPP does the heavy lifting. VIPP is the big dump truck of VI. Fusion Pro may also have four wheels and a steering wheel, but that doesn't mean it can do what the dump truck can do. On the other hand, just because you *can* drive the big dump truck to Sam's Club to pick up the week's worth of toilet paper/paper towels/five gallons of mayonnaise, doesn't mean you should. You should also have a smaller, more nimble truck to handle that.

Use the tool that's appropriate for the job. And beware anyone telling you that *his* product, or product of choice, is suitable for everything.

That all being said, dump Lytrod and hand program the VIPP using the IDE programmer's tool for assistance.

Thanks a lot elmo3. Your post sums it up and you have explained it very clearly. I appreciate your input.

I have seen a VIPP project code sample on http://www.vippcommands.com/controller.asp?WCI=download
under the heading Sample Line 1 Job and the file name is Credit1.zip

It is a good example of using VIPP in Line mode. It would be advantageous to learn VIPP. But there are no VIPP tutorials online.

It is just a request - Would any of the experienced VIPP programmers have access to VIPP code samples to do various practical jobs with added complexities (as in advanced job conditions)? They would have encountered these in their career and maybe documented it. It will make VIPP learning a lot quicker learning to apply it to practical job situations than just learning the syntax.

It was just a thought. Any guidance is greatly appreciated.

Thanks and regards
raviv

If you know a friendly Xerox analyst, he can probably find you an application similar to what you're trying to accomplish. Those are stuck away in a library someplace. You can then adjust it to your needs.

If you're moving toward coding VIPP by hand, may I suggest going all the way and coding PostScript by hand? Every single VDP tool, including VIPP, is based on the core capabilities of the PostScript programming language. And despite anything you might have heard, it isn't that hard to learn. Over time you'll develop a library of PostScript routines and methods to tackle most any job. And of course, PostScript is device-independent.

If you are evaluating different VDP tools, however, I should throw PrintShop Mail and/or PlanetPress into the ring, as well. Disclaimer: I work for Objectif Lune, the developers of PrintShop Mail and PlanetPress, so you could call me biased. Prior to that, however, I have a long history of independent consulting and contracting for commercial printers, and have successfully taught and implemented "pure PostScript" workflows for a variety of companies.

That Postscript is device-independent, and therefore vendor-independent, is the only advantage.

One can do things in VIPP that are not easily done in Postscript.

I politely disagree. VIPP is PostScript. I'll grant that PostScript doesn't have a user interface. But what all VDP tools do, in the long run, is produce PostScript. Earlier in this thread, someone recommended to code VIPP by hand. If you're going to hand-code, though, why do it in VIPP? My point is that hand-coding pure PostScript isn't much more difficult, and gives you much greater power and portability. I've been preaching that message for years, now, though, and I'm still shocked that the printing industry essentially ignores PostScript.