Digital Front End Options

[bign]

Hi,

I'm wondering what are the parameters for taking a decision which Digital Front End should be purchased with an Igen3 out of the 3 possibilities: Creo Spire, EFI and DOCUSP.

I would be grateful to any Igen3 user that can share his decision process and what made him choose his DFE.

Regards,
Big

[patrick]

Well, we have a Creo front end on our iGen3 and are very happy with its capabilities.

It boils down to your workflow. If you are primarily a prepress shop then the Creo is a good option.

DocuSP is better suited for the in-plant or heavy variable data (VIPP) workflows and workflows that can impose the work upstream rather then rely on the in rip imposition.

The EFI solution runs through a DocuSP so unless you absolutely need an EFI workflow, I can't really see any logical reason to buy an EFI rip and pass it through the DocuSP. The Creo seems to be a decent alternative to this solution. If you don't want a Creo but want the functionality of it, then maybe the EFI / DocuSP solution would work for you.

Again, your workflow should drive the decision. Take a look at all 3 solutions very closely and test your applications / workflows through both and bring your operator(s) with to get their take on which they feel more comfortable with.

[silversurfer]

The EFI solution runs through a DocuSP so unless you absolutely need an EFI workflow, I can't really see any logical reason to buy an EFI rip and pass it through the DocuSP. The Creo seems to be a decent alternative to this solution. If you don't want a Creo but want the functionality of it, then maybe the EFI / DocuSP solution would work for you..

I was told (by Xerox) that the Creo also had to be run through DocuSP. Is this not the case?

[patrick]

No Creo does NOT run through DocuSP. IT is a standalone DFE/RIP.

[silversurfer]

No Creo does NOT run through DocuSP. IT is a standalone DFE/RIP.

Interesting. Everytime we mention switching to the Creo DFE, Xerox always tries to discourage us with the excuses:
- "The Creo has to run through the DocuSP, so you are still stuck with the DocuSP"
- "The version of Spire that works with the iGen is a previous one, not the 4.1 version installed on the DC2045."

Is that a lie as well? What version of Spire are you running with your iGen?

[patrick]

I am afraid you are getting misinformation about Creo and Spire from Xerox. I would suggest you try to find out who your Creo support person for Xerox is or just call the hotline and ask your questions.

Our Creo Spire is running the latest available software, I don't know what the 2045 version looks like, but Creo is about half of all iGen3 installs and you are clearly being fed misinformation.

[rugby148]

Most of my experience is with DocuSP. Overall I was very pleased with it. Imposition is not the best and it may in some workflows make more sense and be easier to do imposition upstream in a tool like preps. Recently I have had greater exposure to the Creo Spire and am not happy nor impressed.

Xerox and Creo have some work to do. Improvements are necessary on the rip. Hopefully, the upcoming release will remedy the open issues.

[silversurfer]

OK, I've talked to Xerox and some of my coworkers. The issue are:

- The version of Spire that runs the iGen is an older one. We had it on the 2045 and we didn't like it.
- The newer version of Spire (the one we have on the 2045 and like) is supposed to come out soon, but it will have to run through DocuSP like the EFI. This is because Xerox is keeping the control functions proprietary from now on, basically to screw over third party RIP companies (that how the big red X rolls).

Ever since Xerox fixed the CMS in DocuSP, we have been pretty happy with it. The imposition is much simpler than the Creo and works really well for us. We've got a very efficient queue-based workflow for our colour management. Our only complaint is that it could be a bit quicker, but that can be fixed by adding processors. I would opt for the DocuSP with an additional processor over the DocuSP/Creo combination.

If you aren't in a big hurry, we are scheduled to receive the DocuSP 2.2 upgrade in about a month. I'll post up our opinions on that as soon as we get it.

[patrick]

I would like to see proof that the new 2.2 creo will only run through a docuSP as I can tell you that is completely not true.

We are currently running 2.2 on our Creo connected to an iGen3. All of my Xerox contacts have stated publicly that the Creo will continue to be supported in its current state, ie directly connected to the iGen3 and not pass through the DocuSP like EFI does.

The interface has changed in the 2.2 release to the new version, although it has some quirks it is a step up from the old interface.

That is about all I can disclose as 2.2 is officially released for Creo and a few folks already have it and new systems are shipping with it.

I would like to find out where this false information is coming from inside Xerox and put it to rest, as I had the same concerns over 9 months ago with Kodak acquiring Creo but at the highest levels I have been assured that Creo will be supported in its current state going forward and that it will not be passing through a DocuSP.

However, with that said, I could see a possiblity of Creo/Kodak coming out with a different 3rd party RIP that could passthrough the DocuSP. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense though...

[silversurfer]

There is little information that I can find on this. I too would like to get this misinformation cleared up.

The version of Spire that is running our DC2045 is 4.1.

So you are running 2.2 on your iGen directly?

Are there different conventions for the version numbers connected to different devices? Or are you 2 full versions behind the current Spire offering?

[patrick]

Ok, without disclosing any further information...

We are running a different GUI then the 2.x software from the 20xx line and the original GUI to the iGen3 Spire. The latest software for the 60xx and 80xx docucolors driven by Creo Spires is the 4.x GUI.

This 4.x GUI is similar to the new GUI in the Xerox released iGen3 software 2.2 for the iGen3 Creo Spire which is hooked up directly to the iGen3, NO DOCUSP. My understanding is it is somewhat different set of features then the 4.x that are specific to the iGen3.

End of story. Unless someone has a Creo Spire running through a DocuSP as proof and will allow me to see it, we need to put this to rest. THERE IS NO CREO SOLUTION RUNNING THROUGH A DOCUSP, nor will there be any time soon.

The information that Xerox is telling you is false, end of story. The fact of the matter is over half of iGen3 installs are Creo Spire driven. It would be a critical mistake for Xerox to stop supporting over half of the existing iGen3's with less then 3 years of product life and force everyone through the DocuSP. This simply is not happening now, and although the possibility does exist, is highly unlikely anytime soon. Why would Xerox allow Creo access to the iGen3, and its other products throughout the color line, and then force Creo to work through the DocuSP. It simply doesn't make sense.

The bottom line is, the EFI RIP is an anomoly, the EFI RIP allows EFI workflow solutions to work with the iGen3. Xerox is pushing this as a viable solution into the office realm and EFI workflows. Creo and now Kodak already have ways to enable Brisque and Printergy workflows to iGen3 through Creo Spire or DocuSP and Freeflow. It is in the best interest of Xerox to support a Creo Spire solution and continue to support over half of the iGen3 customers out there.

Hopefully this puts this to rest. What you are being told by Xerox is false and is only hurting them in the long run. Ask them for proof, insist on seeing documentation or ask them to have their Creo support person verify this as I have. You will see that 2.2 is running on existing Creos directly to iGen3s.

I think this is an important issue as the larger relationship between Xerox and Kodak/Creo Spire group. From all the research and conversations I have had, the relationship will continue without significant change for the time being.

[silversurfer]

We told Xerox that 2.X (or earlier, I'm not sure of the timeframe) wasn't an option for us, we didn't like it at all. What we wanted was to run 4.X with the iGen. I think maybe they know that, which is why they've been telling us our only option would be to run through DocuSP. Which is kinda what you are saying. But if you are saying that iGen 2.2 is the same as DC6000 4.1, then perhaps we should take another look at it.

But really, I wouldn't put it past Xerox to pull a stunt like requiring DocuSP for any new Creo installs.

You never know...

[patrick]

That was my thought 9 months ago about where Creo / Kodak and Xerox are going.

I have no proof that it is happening, it is only pure speculation on anyones part. My hunch tells me that Xerox won't do that with the iGen3 new or old installs, pure and simple.

Also, if you think about it, it doesn't help in the overall scheme. Which would Xerox like to sell, more docuSP's or more iGen3s? They will want flexiblity and credibility in the commercial print space and will continue to offer Creo as an option, direct to the iGen3.

I will tell you my gut tells me Creo Spire directly to the iGen3 will be around for awhile.

[rugby148]

silversurfer,

Don't get to bogged down by the version numbers. Creo and Xerox version numbers are a mess. Bottom line is the Spire for the 2045 and the Igen are not the same major version. Think of windows 2000 service pack 3 and windows xp service pack 2. XP service pack 2 is newer or atleast the newest of the XP versions.

Spire for the Igen current versions are 2.x and to compare to the 2045 versions 4.x. There will be differences with the Spire for the different engines that are engine specific. I would take a second look at Spire for the Igen, ask to see the newest release (I think 2.2). It connects directly to the engine and does not require DocuSP.

It is also probably a good idea to start talking directly to some of the Creo folks that support Xerox installations.